Below is a copy of the most recent comment regarding this discussion, compliments to my friend Kerry Lewis over at, Hymnus Deo. I thought it was significant enough to reproduce here.
"To quote the Mad Hatter, "I'm late! I'm late!" Here, in a few words, is what I had intended to post last week.
According to Brethren biographer Robert Baylis, Darby traveled through Continental Europe between 1839 and 1845. He was fluent in French, German, and Italian, and so he was able to travel and move among the various countries fairly easily. According to Wikipedia, he translated the Bible into French and German. Whether or not he wrote in any language other than English, however, I still don't know.
In Darby's tract, as I remember, he did mention "pastors" in a favourable way, but I would guess that he was using the term as synonymous with "elder", which for him would carry the idea of lay offices only.
Between what is called the Open Brethren and what is called the Closed or Exclusive Brethren, however, there have been differences. (There are even differences between the Closed and the Exclusive Brethren for some - at least, in the way they use the terms. Generally, however, my understanding is that the terms "Closed" and "Exclusive" refer to the same type of Brethren. So that is how I'm using them here.) If I showed up at an Open Brethren assembly this Sunday (such as Shannon Hills in Greensboro, which I attended growing up), I could partake of worship and the Lord's Supper, so long as I professed faith in Jesus Christ, whether or not I held to the principles uniquely held by the Brethren. With the Exclusives, however, you not only have to be in fellowship with a Brethren assembly in order to participate in worship, you have to be in fellowship with an accepted Closed Brethren assembly. They actually have two sets of chairs set up in an Exclusive Brethren meeting hall. The inner circle is for those who are Exclusives and able to participate (not under church discipline, etc.). The outer circle is for those who, for whatever reason, aren't allowed to participate. They are allowed to observe only. (There was a great low-budget film put out this past Spring by Paramount Vantage called Son of Rambow. It's about an Exclusive Brethren boy in England and the trials he has trying to balance his life with the Brethren and his life with those outside of the Brethren. The treatment of the Exclusives is slightly exaggerated, but not much, and it captures the spirit of the movement - the Opens, but especially the Exclusives - very well. It was my favourite movie this year. See it, if you get a chance. It's on dvd now. I saw it at the Carousel Grande when it was playing.)
The Exclusive or Closed Brethren usually utilize the phrase "Gospel Hall" in their assembly names (such as "Hickory Gospel Hall", which actually exists in Hickory, N. C.). The Open Brethren usually utilize the phrase "Chapel" or "Bible Chapel" in their assembly names (as in "Shannon Hills Bible Chapel").
The Closed Brethren descend from Darby. The Open Brethren descend from leaders like George Mueller and Anthony Norris Groves. Of course, there have been splits and variations since then, and these started within just a few years of the movement, the first split being between the Open and the Closed Brethren.
Among the Open Brethren, the form of church government is Independency for each assembly, and each assembly is ruled by a body of elders and deacons, whose roles operate largely after the manner of Presbyterianism. But there was a variation on this that happened among the Exclusives. In 1838, they began holding a meeting every Saturday night composed of leaders from the various Closed assemblies in and around London. The stated intention was to help smaller assemblies in matters of policy and administration. But the practical effect was the creation of a central ruling body, that claimed for itself enough power to discipline members and bar them from the Lord's Table. We would call that a Presbytery, though they wouldn't appreciate us using such a label for them, and their meeting assumed more power to itself than any well-working Presbytery would in Reformed churches. Also, Darby ended up being a sort of default leader for the group, and so they ended up with what we would call a Bishopric or Episcopacy, though they once again wouldn't appreciate us accusing them of this. So Darby went full circle, leaving Episcopacy and ending up there again. The end results of this screwy system is legend, and I couldn't begin to talk about them here.
If you want some other interesting thoughts on the Brethren view of church government, you might check out my brief post from a couple of years ago here:
http://hymnusdeo.blogspot.com/2006/12/exclusive-brethren-elders.html "
"To quote the Mad Hatter, "I'm late! I'm late!" Here, in a few words, is what I had intended to post last week.
According to Brethren biographer Robert Baylis, Darby traveled through Continental Europe between 1839 and 1845. He was fluent in French, German, and Italian, and so he was able to travel and move among the various countries fairly easily. According to Wikipedia, he translated the Bible into French and German. Whether or not he wrote in any language other than English, however, I still don't know.
In Darby's tract, as I remember, he did mention "pastors" in a favourable way, but I would guess that he was using the term as synonymous with "elder", which for him would carry the idea of lay offices only.
Between what is called the Open Brethren and what is called the Closed or Exclusive Brethren, however, there have been differences. (There are even differences between the Closed and the Exclusive Brethren for some - at least, in the way they use the terms. Generally, however, my understanding is that the terms "Closed" and "Exclusive" refer to the same type of Brethren. So that is how I'm using them here.) If I showed up at an Open Brethren assembly this Sunday (such as Shannon Hills in Greensboro, which I attended growing up), I could partake of worship and the Lord's Supper, so long as I professed faith in Jesus Christ, whether or not I held to the principles uniquely held by the Brethren. With the Exclusives, however, you not only have to be in fellowship with a Brethren assembly in order to participate in worship, you have to be in fellowship with an accepted Closed Brethren assembly. They actually have two sets of chairs set up in an Exclusive Brethren meeting hall. The inner circle is for those who are Exclusives and able to participate (not under church discipline, etc.). The outer circle is for those who, for whatever reason, aren't allowed to participate. They are allowed to observe only. (There was a great low-budget film put out this past Spring by Paramount Vantage called Son of Rambow. It's about an Exclusive Brethren boy in England and the trials he has trying to balance his life with the Brethren and his life with those outside of the Brethren. The treatment of the Exclusives is slightly exaggerated, but not much, and it captures the spirit of the movement - the Opens, but especially the Exclusives - very well. It was my favourite movie this year. See it, if you get a chance. It's on dvd now. I saw it at the Carousel Grande when it was playing.)
The Exclusive or Closed Brethren usually utilize the phrase "Gospel Hall" in their assembly names (such as "Hickory Gospel Hall", which actually exists in Hickory, N. C.). The Open Brethren usually utilize the phrase "Chapel" or "Bible Chapel" in their assembly names (as in "Shannon Hills Bible Chapel").
The Closed Brethren descend from Darby. The Open Brethren descend from leaders like George Mueller and Anthony Norris Groves. Of course, there have been splits and variations since then, and these started within just a few years of the movement, the first split being between the Open and the Closed Brethren.
Among the Open Brethren, the form of church government is Independency for each assembly, and each assembly is ruled by a body of elders and deacons, whose roles operate largely after the manner of Presbyterianism. But there was a variation on this that happened among the Exclusives. In 1838, they began holding a meeting every Saturday night composed of leaders from the various Closed assemblies in and around London. The stated intention was to help smaller assemblies in matters of policy and administration. But the practical effect was the creation of a central ruling body, that claimed for itself enough power to discipline members and bar them from the Lord's Table. We would call that a Presbytery, though they wouldn't appreciate us using such a label for them, and their meeting assumed more power to itself than any well-working Presbytery would in Reformed churches. Also, Darby ended up being a sort of default leader for the group, and so they ended up with what we would call a Bishopric or Episcopacy, though they once again wouldn't appreciate us accusing them of this. So Darby went full circle, leaving Episcopacy and ending up there again. The end results of this screwy system is legend, and I couldn't begin to talk about them here.
If you want some other interesting thoughts on the Brethren view of church government, you might check out my brief post from a couple of years ago here:
http://hymnusdeo.blogspot.com/2006/12/exclusive-brethren-elders.html "
10 comments:
Actually the Exclusive Brethren allow nobody within their churches that are not able to participate.Those that are in discipline are either in total separation other than visits by priests to try for repentance or excommunicated .
Excommunication includes not even contact between family members or parents with children .Family members lose total contact for years by force .
Though through media attention lately they have been trying to suggest some change .How truthful the claims of change actually are remains to be seen .
More information here should you be interested . http://peebs.net/ http://peebs.net/Community/
Actually i would say its likely the film Son of Rambow was more understated .
Im an ex member .Ive felt the pain.
anonymous,
There may be some differences in practice on this between the various Exclusives. I've known Exclusives who told me this was their practice. Also, it was the practice when Edward Cronin was disciplined by the Exclusives in Darby's day. You can consult Baylis's work for further information on this.
As far as Son of Rambow's presentation of the Exclusives, I was basing my statement on some responses to the film made by some former Exclusives on a web forum dedicated to the intersection of art and the Christian faith. I'm glad you showed up to give a different perspective.
Thanks Kerry and i would just like to point out i was not meaning to sound unhappy about what you had written .
Im sure you are right there is many differences within this group.
Even today within the exclusive brethren group im talking about rules chop and change like the wind .
In Darbys day yes things were very differnt from what they are now.
Of course with the bad experience ive had i guess its not easy to all ways come off sounding to happy about matters .
Thanks most of all for being interested!.Thanks for blogging and providing information .
anonymous,
I didn't take what you said as being critical of me, so no problem.
I left the Open Brethren about nine years ago, and I still have to cope at times with the damage caused. With the Exclusives being so much worse, you have good reason to be negative. It's hard to be critical - an important thing to do - while forgiving those that have harmed you, and maintaining that attitude of forgiveness. I have tried to forgive, but that doesn't mean I don't still criticize the Brethren. It would be unloving to those both inside and outside of the movement if I were to keep silent on these things. And yet it's sinful to wallow in self-pity, though it's harder for some of us to escape this than others. If I find myself slipping into that, I confess it, thank God that He works all things out for my good, and ask for grace to trust Him more. And He calls us to rejoice in all things, so I strive to do that, though I'm a far ways away from mastering that. So, in short, I'm there with you.
And if you have any more info about what Jason is writing, I'm sure Jason would like to hear it. I know I would.
Definitely Kerry. I am looking for as much info about the beginnings of the Brethren movement (its relationship to the inception and development of Dispensationalism in particular) so I don't misrepresent them. As I think I stated in an earlier post, the purpose of this (and several series I have started) is to understand dispy theology, and critique it well, as I am recently of the "covenant" persuasion. Being convinced that its hermeneutical structure is malformed, I want to show people what I've been shown regarding Dispensationalism's deficiencies
Btw, I was in the ER Sunday night with a wrist injury which has since, hampered my cpu-sage, hence my limited blogging.
We've missed you at Bible study. I can't remember if you had said you would be missing for some reason or another. Come on back if you're able.
I've missed it too. I missed lat time b/c of a difficult night. My wife Melissa has had a rough pregnancy...kidney stones. Lord willing, I should be there next week.
Wow, that is rough. I'll certainly be praying for her.
"And if you have any more info about what Jason is writing, I'm sure Jason would like to hear it. I know I would."
Sorry im not able to personally help.I know very little.
But should anybody wish to there is the option of contacting people on the ex exclusive brethren site by asking for information by contacting them on this link here http://peebs.net/ContactUs/
Those who run the site are helpful people who enjoy people keeping intouch .Though they are also at times at present kept very busy with such matters as this http://peebs.net/Community/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=2638
So if contacting them please dont feel dishonored should they not reply so quickly.
There is many members some of whom i think might have some information they might be quite willing to give .Many of these folk enjoy to remember and talk about such matters ,some being quite elderly might have some valuable information .
Thanks for the kind words , best wishes to all !.
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